Q93 Mr. Ian Mearns (Gateshead): Good morning, Minister. You reeled off a range of statistics about those youngsters who were entered into the English Bac and those who got it and those who didn't. But since you introduced it retrospectively, do those statistics actually have any legitimacy really?

Mr Gibb: These subjects are entitlement subjects. We didn't say astrophysics was one of them. According to the 2006 Act, these are subjects to which all students are entitled to be taught if they wish to study them at GCSE. Most of them are actually compulsory and must be studied to the age of 16. And yet there are 175 secondary schools where no pupils were entered for all the English Bac subjects; there were 169 schools where there were no French entries, and there were 137 schools where no pupils were entered for geography.

You talked about the English Bac being retrospective. This isn't an accountability measure. So the five or more GCSEs will remain the measure that we look at in the Department for schools that are underperforming. In a way, this is a baseline and I anticipate that, as a consequence of an early announcement of this performance measure, we will see a rise in that percentage in the years ahead.

Q94 Mr. Ian Mearns (Gateshead): You say that it's not an accountability measure, but the fact that it is published in league table format automatically makes it such a measure in the eyes of the public, who are making judgements about which schools they want to send their children to. How can it not be an accountability measure?

Mr Gibb: I think that it will be an accountability measure in that sense, but if we had come up with a figure that had no resonance with parents then it would have no effect on parents. But this is a measure that we believe parents are interested in and the way that many schools have reacted to it confirms that view that it is something that parents are interested in. I think head teachers recognise that.

Q95 Mr. Ian Mearns (Gateshead): We are already seeing evidence that schools are trying to cram youngsters through history in just over a term, in order to qualify for the English Bac. Do you actually see that? If it's not an accountability measure, why are schools doing that?

Mr Gibb: They shouldn't be doing that. They shouldn't be changing subjects mid-way through a course. That is not in the interests of students and I think that it would be a minority of schools that are doing that. What we are trying to do here is to redress perverse incentives in the performance measures whereby students have been entered into subjects that are not in their best interests.

Q96 Mr. Ian Mearns (Gateshead): Given the power of hindsight, do you think that the retrospective introduction was wise? And do you think that the timing of the EBac introduction was wise, given that we have got a national curriculum review going on at the same time?

Mr Gibb: It was the right thing to announce it when we did, because there are some serious issues that we are trying to address. For example, modern foreign languages was one of our main drivers for doing this. In 2002, something like three quarters of the whole cohort took a modern foreign language to GCSE. Last year, that figure was 43%, and if you strip out the independent sector it is just above a third. That is a concern. Geography has fallen from 45% of students taking it in 1995 to 26% of students taking it in 2010. History is down from 39% to 31%. So we are trying to address some very real concerns and some schools will need to go out and recruit French teachers and other modern language teachers. The earlier that we can get this measure in the ether the better, so that schools can start to equip their staffing.

Q97 Mr. Ian Mearns (Gateshead): We heard from Alison Wolf this morning. In her report, she stated that

"distinctive curricula and innovation are highly desirable and will be facilitated by the scaling back of the National Curriculum to which the government is committed."

Doesn't the prescriptive nature of the EBac undermine that to a certain extent?

Mr Gibb: Again, it isn't prescriptive. People had been saying for a while, "Why don't you make modern languages compulsory? Why isn't history compulsory to 16?" and that is something that we've asked the Curriculum Review to look at. It isn't prescriptive in that sense, and the Curriculum Review is reducing prescription, particularly in how to teach. Even when you take into account the whole of the English Baccalaureate, it's either six or seven GCSEs-seven if you have triple science, and six if it's the double award science. There is plenty of scope beyond that to study other subjects, such as music, art, RE and vocational subjects, in addition to those core academic subjects.

Q98 Mr. Ian Mearns (Gateshead): A last one from me, Minister: in terms of the EBac and its introduction, what consultation took place and with whom?

Mr Gibb: We made it very clear before the election that we were concerned about perverse incentives in the league tables, and I was mooting a range of options, including taking the five or more GCSEs from a given range of GCSEs. We didn't go down that route; we decided to go down the English Baccalaureate route. I think that we made it very plain before the election that we were minded to do something with the performance tables to remove the perverse incentives, but I repeat that the accountability measure remains the five or more GCSEs, and if we were to change that there would be much more consultation.

Q99 Mr. Ian Mearns (Gateshead): If the accountability measure remains the five GCSEs including English and maths, why do we then publish tables that include the English Bac? I just don't understand that logic.

Mr Gibb: Because the tables include all kinds of measures anyway. Lord Adonis introduced the English and maths components, and he then introduced a science element as well, which is also one of our concerns, by the way, because if you look at the five or more GCSEs at A to C, including English, maths, science and a modern language, the figure fell from 27% in, I think, 2002, to 22% last year. While the GCSE figure has been going up, that figure has been falling. The league tables contain a number of columns with all kinds of different permutations, and what we're saying is that we think this is a permutation that will interest parents, but we're interested in other permutations that other interested bodies and parents might want.

Q100 Mr. Ian Mearns (Gateshead): The bottom line is that it depends on which ones the headline writers focus on; that's where everyone takes accountability from, isn't it, really?

Mr Gibb: Yes, I agree with you there, and that really will be what the perception is that parents are interested in.

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Q114 Mr. Ian Mearns (Gateshead): In an answer to a question from Nic, Minister, you referred to the English Bac as a performance measure, but it is not an accountability measure. I'm terribly sorry, but if it swims, if it flies, if it has feathers, if it quacks and if it eats bread in the park, then it's an accountability measure.

Mr Gibb: Yes, but there is no consequence. There are 175 secondary schools where no pupils at all were entered for the EBac but, in terms of the schools that the Department is monitoring and is concerned about, we are not looking at those 175 unless they also happen to be in the group that is achieving less than 35% getting five or more GCSEs, including English and maths. That's why there is a difference between a performance measure and an accountability measure.

Q115 Mr. Ian Mearns (Gateshead): Down the line, you just cannot see a scenario where Ofsted is making judgements of schools against the English Bac?

Mr Gibb: I'm sure Ofsted will look at a whole range of performance measures, and I am sure it will look at the English Baccalaureate as well as the five or more. It will look at how pupils are achieving in vocational subjects, music and art, sport and the whole range of the broad curriculum in a school.

This is an uncorrected transcript of evidence taken in public and reported to the House. The transcript has been placed on the internet on the authority of the Committee. Neither witnesses nor Members have had the opportunity to correct the record. The transcript is not yet an approved formal record of these proceedings.

The full transcript may be read here.

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